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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 7:38:47 GMT -5
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Post by Uncle Henry on Jan 22, 2016 2:28:11 GMT -5
Mr. Rorem a coarse northern american man described Boulez, Stockbottle and company as "the serial killers of music". We would never express it that way but still he had a point did he not.
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Post by ahinton on Jan 22, 2016 7:32:30 GMT -5
Mr. Rorem a coarse northern american man described Boulez, Stockbottle and company as "the serial killers of music". We would never express it that way but still he had a point did he not. Mr. Ned Rorem is a distinguished American composer, now in his 90s, who has no cause whatsoever to be referred to with the contempt that you express when describing him as "a coarse northern american man", especially when I have every reason to doubt that you are personally acquainted with him and therefore have little or no idea what kind of man he may be. By "Stockbottle" I assume you to mean "Stockhausen". Mr Rorem's phrase "the serial killers of music" is at least amusing and the fact that you and your "we" would not express his sentiments in such words is really neither here nor there. To the extent that serial composition (including but not necessarily limited to its dodecaphonic variety) has long been recognised as just one way to go about it and that many composers have written music tht is and other music that is not hidebound to such processes and procedures in any way, it is quite clear that it may have had its time anmd place but then so have so many other approaches to composition; the fact that Boulez uttered such fatuities as he notoriously did when a young firebrand - i.e. that composers without sufficient grasp of the oimportance of serialist practice were "useless" - is now widely recognised for what it was and, given his other pronouncements around that time which frequently centred upon an apparentle fervent desire to put the past in its place, Mr Rorem's comment is understandable and hardly seems unreasonable. Schönberg's system of composing with twelve tones equal to one another was not the only outcome of attempts in serialist directions, other having been made in the early part of last century by Skryabin, Roslavets, Hauer and others (and who knows what Liszt had in mind with his title Prélude Omnitonique?); many composers did not subscribe to any of these and, among those who did, Messiaen's foray (sorry - no pun intended!) into a form of total serialism, most especially in his Quatre études de rhythme, for piano, is perhaps notable for its remarkably short-lived nature. One feature of dodecaphonic serialist practice was, at least in certain of its practitioners, a desire to undermine any sense of hierarchy of tones such as there had been for centuries in tonal and modal music (as though some kind of semitonal democracy) but, of course, such is possible only to the extent that one has to choose one's rows very carefully and treat them in particular ways in order to achieve this and, even then, it cannot be guaranteed - and let's not forget how Schönberg himself loathed the term "atonality".
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2016 9:46:41 GMT -5
Perhaps we are all assassins!
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Post by Uncle Henry on Jan 22, 2016 18:08:37 GMT -5
. . . now in his 90s, who has no cause whatsoever . . . What a lamentable expression Mr. H - they are not HIS nineties, how could they be? My use of the description "coarse" stems from what I have read in many places about his published Diaries. Since I have not myself read them I am unable to add further details. But the book I see just now is available unexpectedly freely to readers at openlibrary.org. The fellow's being a "northern american" must be mere misfortune and not a responsibility. But as regards his Christian name: if it is really "Ned" he would do well to change it to something sensible. Better late than never what: "Ned" too is certainly coarse.
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Post by ahinton on Jan 23, 2016 1:51:04 GMT -5
. . . now in his 90s, who has no cause whatsoever . . . What a lamentable expression Mr. H - they are not HIS nineties, how could they be? Pedantry reigns supreme, it would seem. Whose are they, then. Would you prefer that he be described as a nonagenarian composer or what term would you use instead? My use of the description "coarse" stems from what I have read in many places about his published Diaries. Since I have not myself read them I am unable to add further details. So not even secopnd hand but third hand, then; you don't know him personally, you appear not to know anyone who does so and you base your description not on experience of him or even his diaries but on what you have read about those diaries; you could only distance yourself further on this by basis your description on what someone has told you that they've read about those diaries! The fellow's being a "northern american" must be mere misfortune and not a responsibility. Why would it be the former and how could it be the latter? It is, for example, neither my "misfortune" nor my "responsibility" to be a Scot. But as regards his Christian name How can you be sure that he's a Christian? Have you read this somewhere in commentary on his diaries? if it is really "Ned" he would do well to change it to something sensible. Better late than never what: "Ned" too is certainly coarse. Why, on either count? Tell that to Mr Kelly (of whom you surely know) or Mr Marris (of whom you may or may not, hence my referral to thened.co.nz ), neither of whom, incidentally, was/is an American...
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Post by Uncle Henry on Jan 23, 2016 19:14:51 GMT -5
The name "Ned" Mr. H. has in itself no meaning, but is a mere illiteracy that arose when unthinking children heard the expression "my Ed". But the word has currency in Scotland, where it refers to "youths of the hooligan type - Non-Educated Delinquents - who slouch along with their elbows projecting aggressively". There is a whole page about them here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_%28Scottish%29But I myself do not remember in the course of six months' residence in Aberdeen ever having heard the word. Perhaps its use is confined to Glasgow and places of that kind.
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Post by ahinton on Jan 24, 2016 13:31:27 GMT -5
The name "Ned" Mr. H. has in itself no meaning, but is a mere illiteracy that arose when unthinking children heard the expression "my Ed". Lots of names have no "meaning" or are of uncertain "meaning"; who cares? Why might this matter and to whom? But the word has currency in Scotland, where it refers to "youths of the hooligan type - Non-Educated Delinquents - who slouch along with their elbows projecting aggressively". There is a whole page about them here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_%28Scottish%29But I myself do not remember in the course of six months' residence in Aberdeen ever having heard the word. Perhaps its use is confined to Glasgow and places of that kind. I have no idea and could frankly care less. If someone has or chooses the name "Ned", so be it; if someone as distinguished as song composer as Mr Rorem does so, so also be it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2016 11:44:44 GMT -5
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