Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2013 2:11:28 GMT -5
Good morning to you all! The word 'Continent', when used in Britain, usually refers to Europe, but the Continent could arguably refer to Eurasia (and Asia), or indeed, to other continents around the world, including Africa, the Americas, Antarctica and Australia. John Adams is the living composer who is most widely performed today. This visually rich portrait of the composer by award-winning film maker Mark Kidel explores the influences that have shaped Adams's unique music, from minimalism to jazz and from the Indian raga to the European classical tradition. BBC Four (television) - American Master: A Portrait of John AdamsI commend John Adams to everyone reading The Third.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2013 8:36:11 GMT -5
Good afternoon Kleines c.
I haven't looked at the link provided but wonder whether it portrays Adams as the ignorant fool that he showed himself to be in the recent Sound and Fury documentaries.
I heartily condemn Mr Adams to everyone reading The Third.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2013 8:52:10 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by ahinton on Mar 11, 2013 12:23:27 GMT -5
I seek neither to condemn nor to commend Mr Adams but, for all his fame and (doubtless) fortune and exceptionally wide exposure, I cannot help but find much of his work mediocre at best; compared to some of the American minimalists, he's pretty good but compared to other American masters such as Sessions, Carter and Babbitt he seems to me to be pretty small fry (and yes, I did see some of his greater ineptitudes on that programme recently). Overrated, over-performed and, to an extent, over here.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2013 13:58:29 GMT -5
Out of interest, ahinton, are you familiar with any of John Adams's operas? Doctor Atomic
|
|
|
Post by neilmcgowan on Mar 11, 2013 14:57:39 GMT -5
I seek neither to condemn nor to commend Mr Adams but, for all his fame and (doubtless) fortune and exceptionally wide exposure, I cannot help but find much of his work mediocre at best; compared to some of the American minimalists, he's pretty good but compared to other American masters such as Sessions, Carter and Babbitt he seems to me to be pretty small fry (and yes, I did see some of his greater ineptitudes on that programme recently). Overrated, over-performed and, to an extent, over here. I'm afraid all this sounds like pique, Mr Hinton. Nor can I agree with you here. I have made a point of seeing Mr Adams's work in live performance, and I would say he has enormously advanced the degree to which English is set to music. His musical speech-rhythms and inflections for English - for example in DR ATOMIC - are streets ahead of the other composers you list. Indeed, Sessions, Carter and Babbitt have proved themselves ispo facto incapable of writing opera at all.
|
|
|
Post by ahinton on Mar 12, 2013 4:25:16 GMT -5
Out of interest, ahinton, are you familiar with any of John Adams's operas? Doctor AtomicYes.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2013 4:41:16 GMT -5
What do you make of 'Doctor Atomic' then, ahinton? Even if you do not like John Adams's music, at least he is making an artistic comment on some of the great issues of our age!
|
|
|
Post by ahinton on Mar 12, 2013 4:58:26 GMT -5
I seek neither to condemn nor to commend Mr Adams but, for all his fame and (doubtless) fortune and exceptionally wide exposure, I cannot help but find much of his work mediocre at best; compared to some of the American minimalists, he's pretty good but compared to other American masters such as Sessions, Carter and Babbitt he seems to me to be pretty small fry (and yes, I did see some of his greater ineptitudes on that programme recently). Overrated, over-performed and, to an extent, over here. I'm afraid all this sounds like pique, Mr Hinton. Nor can I agree with you here. Whether or not it might sound like that, to you or indeed to anyone else, let me assure you that it is nothing of the kind; I have, after all, no cause to be "piqued" by Mr Adams or his work. Like everyone else, he should write as he wishes and I have at no time doubted the integrity or sincerity of what he writes. If you cannot agree, that's fine; we must therefore agree to disagree! I have made a point of seeing Mr Adams's work in live performance, and I would say he has enormously advanced the degree to which English is set to music. His musical speech-rhythms and inflections for English - for example in DR ATOMIC - are streets ahead of the other composers you list. Indeed, Sessions, Carter and Babbitt have proved themselves ispo facto incapable of writing opera at all. In what specific ways would you say that he has advanced this? He certainly knows well how to do it, as have others, but I'm not so sure that he has actually developed this and taken it forward to new levels in any particularly notable ways. More importantly, however, should one assume that you conclude (and, if so, on what particular grounds) that, as Sessions's The Trial of Lucullus and Montezuma and Carter's What Next? are their composers' only stage works and as Babbitt eschewed opera altogether, all three have accordingly "proved themselves incapable of writing opera at all"? Would you say the same of Brahms, Reger, Chopin, Simpson, Alkan, Rubbra, Godowsky, Scriabin et al? Opera isn't everything to all composers, after all and, whilst it's been an important feature of Adams's work, I do not see that fact as elevating his position above those of composers who have written little or nothing for the stage (and, likewise, I wouldn't think to frown upon Adams for not having to his credit a corpus of piano music of the order of Chopin, Alkan, Godowsky and Scriabin or a series of symphonies of the order of Rubbra, Simpson or Sessions). Oh and, by they way, if indeed I'm wrong about this and it does so elevate them, I'd better run along and do something else, since many years ago I declared to someone that one of my ambitions as a composer is never to write for the stage and I've managed to fulfil this to date... There are unquestionably plenty of American composers of various persuasions inferior to Adams, but I simply do not see him as America's Great White Light of music as many seem to do; little of his music moves me at all, I'm afraid, but that's a mere personal opinion which I do not necessarily expect others to share purely because I happen to hold it! I note en passant, incidentally, that Adams was a pupil of Sessions - and, for what it may or may not be worth to mention it, his father did not know Charles Ives...
|
|
|
Post by neilmcgowan on Mar 12, 2013 9:08:35 GMT -5
Whether or not it might sound like that, to you or indeed to anyone else, let me assure you that it is nothing of the kind;. Since you justified your low rating of Mr Adams only by envious remarks about his popularity and income, it is hard to come to any other conclusion. Nothing was said whatsoever about his works or their content. More importantly, however, should one assume that you conclude (and, if so, on what particular grounds) that, as Sessions's The Trial of Lucullus and Montezuma and Carter's What Next? are their composers' only stage works and as Babbitt eschewed opera altogether, all three have accordingly "proved themselves incapable of writing opera at all"? My opinion of Babbitt frankly, could not be lower. The fact that he failed to write any opera speaks for itself - he was unable to do it. Where can we see or hear the Carter or Sessions works? Exactly! "I have played over the music of that scoundrel Brahms. What a giftless bastard he is!"(P.I.Tchaikovsky)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2013 11:01:22 GMT -5
[Where can we see or hear the Carter or Sessions works? Exactly! Never mind the quality feel the popularity eh?
|
|
|
Post by neilmcgowan on Mar 12, 2013 11:50:55 GMT -5
Never mind the quality feel the popularity eh? Oh dear, someone else unhappy with Mr Adams's popularity too?? Out of interest, has anyone here ever heard a note of either of these two works?? What can you tell us about them?
|
|
|
Post by ahinton on Mar 12, 2013 13:11:26 GMT -5
Whether or not it might sound like that, to you or indeed to anyone else, let me assure you that it is nothing of the kind;. Since you justified your low rating of Mr Adams only by envious remarks about his popularity and income, it is hard to come to any other conclusion. Nothing was said whatsoever about his works or their content. I did not "justify" per se - or even seek to justify - my "low rating of Mr Adams" and, to be frank, I think in retrospect that I was unduly harsh in my use of the word "mediocre and accordingly apologise for and withdraw it, but you continue to miss the point in regarding my remarks as "envious" of "his popularity and income"; not only did I make no specific reference to his popularity as such and none at all to his income (of which you will surely be unsurprised to learn that I have no specific details), I did not express "envy" and I am not "envious" of either of these things. I hope that this is now clear. More importantly, however, should one assume that you conclude (and, if so, on what particular grounds) that, as Sessions's The Trial of Lucullus and Montezuma and Carter's What Next? are their composers' only stage works and as Babbitt eschewed opera altogether, all three have accordingly "proved themselves incapable of writing opera at all"? My opinion of Babbitt frankly, could not be lower. The fact that he failed to write any opera speaks for itself - he was unable to do it. Your opinion of Babbitt can be as low as you want it to be but, with respect, I do not think that it should extend to assuming failure and inability on his part to write an opera when it's perfectly possible that he felt no inclination to write for the stage, just as Elliott Carter seemed not to have until he'd been composing for some six decades and then wrote but one. Do you believe, rather in the manner in which Boulez once famously declared about composers in respect of serialism, that composes who don't write operas not only can't write operas and are somehow useless as composers? If so, on what specific grounds? Where can we see or hear the Carter or Sessions works? Sessions is sadly under-represented in live performances but some information on his not inconsiderable discography may be found at www.allmusic.com/artist/roger-sessions-mn0001379964/compositions; Carter receives a good many more performances than Sessions and some information on his discography may be found at www.allmusic.com/artist/elliott-carter-mn0000055136/compositions. "I have played over the music of that scoundrel Brahms. What a giftless bastard he is!"(P.I.Tchaikovsky) which just goes to show that even Tchaikovsky, remarkable composer that he was, didn't get everything right ALL the time!
|
|
|
Post by ahinton on Mar 12, 2013 13:12:35 GMT -5
Never mind the quality feel the popularity eh? Oh dear, someone else unhappy with Mr Adams's popularity too?? "Else"? Who are the others, then?!
|
|
|
Post by neilmcgowan on Mar 12, 2013 13:44:48 GMT -5
Oh dear, someone else unhappy with Mr Adams's popularity too?? "Else"? Who are the others, then?![/quote] Come-come, Mr Hinton, don't be ungrateful for the moral support you've had! Now, please come clean - have you actually heard either of these wonderful Carter or Sessions operas yourself?
|
|