Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2013 11:30:11 GMT -5
I think, to be honest, I am not qualified to offer an informed opinion on this!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2013 11:53:27 GMT -5
I myself have no idea what a perfect schedule is or the criteria or method that Radio 3 uses to devise one, I would advise persons wishing to know should contact bbc radio 3.
....
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2013 11:58:08 GMT -5
Well, one way you can measure a schedule is through ratings, Jason!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2013 12:11:13 GMT -5
Metrics are indeed important, glad you mentioned that, always good to have a numbers chap in the team.
Radio 3 is not there to make money though, but to serve a specific segment of society, you know, the Queen is a fan of Radio 3.
... now then, let us pop back to the Taleb Analysis.... a few people are more important than others, you see....
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2013 13:58:04 GMT -5
On that basis, perhaps Roger Wright ought simply to broadcast something which the Queen might like, Jason!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2013 19:09:58 GMT -5
Since Brahms died before the turn of the last century . . . - and since in any case his experience of America was considerably less than that of Dvořák and his sojourns in Africa were most notable by their absence - the possibility that he ever heard any jazz per se is . . . remote . . . I mentioned Brahms only in passing - in reply 34 - in relation to the "sweet tone" of the Grapalli person as lauded by Grove's. I endeavoured to show that good violin music - such as Brahms's - requires very much more than a "sweet tone." The question of Brahms's knowledge of and interest in the musical productions of the amercian negros was raised by Mr. H and not by me. But although incidental to the principal subject of this thread, it is an important question. Dvořák - cited by the Member - had an interest in the musical productions of negro groups (which led to his ninth, the weakest of his symphonies), and there was Delius in the same era, and no doubt a good many more. So it is almost certain that Brahms too, the leading composer of his day, was aware of these phenomena in all their sad and horrid detail. The long - altogether too absurdly long - article in Wikipædia about "jazz" ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz) is informative here. It had all been going on since at least the early nineteenth century. "In the early nineteenth century an increasing number of negro musicians learned to play European instruments, particularly the violin, which they used to parody European dance music in their own dances." In turn, minstrel show performers - silly white men - in their guilt painted their faces black and popularized such music internationally, combining syncopation with European harmonic accompaniment. And to this day silly white men in their guilt continue - figuratively - to paint their faces black.Additionally, look at this "tresillo rhythm" from the same article: Was it not in fact used by Brahms himself in several of his late and fascinating piano-forte compositions? . . . the African music that you state as having given rise to jazz in America . . . So now, leaving Brahms aside, we return to "jazz" and the question of the legitimacy of its performance on the Third Programme. Mr. H., in his strangely zealous defence thereof, attributes to me things I have not said. "Africa!" he cries; and again and again "Africa!" Well no - perhaps a misunderstanding - I did in reply 17 quote the O.E.D. which tells us that the word originated in Africa, but I did not say that the musical " style" originated there. In fact I have several times explained the origination of this "jazz": it arose among the slave classes of northern amercia as a sneering parody, glorifying sloth, among poor persons not permitted to marry. In the circumstances they had every right to sing and play such degraded stuff. What seems wrong is that the vast bulk of ordinary amercians in their ignorance should take it up and puff it, and make it the subject of university courses, and that clean-limbed Englishmen, even, partly in ignorance and partly in guilt, should do likewise with grins on their faces. It is simply incongruous, and - like so much that the B.B.C. puts out to-day - in the end embarrassing.
|
|
|
Post by ahinton on Oct 3, 2013 1:21:27 GMT -5
Since Brahms died before the turn of the last century . . . - and since in any case his experience of America was considerably less than that of Dvořák and his sojourns in Africa were most notable by their absence - the possibility that he ever heard any jazz per se is . . . remote . . . I mentioned Brahms only in passing - in reply 34 - in relation to the "sweet tone" of the Grapalli person as lauded by Grove's. I endeavoured to show that good violin music - such as Brahms's - requires very much more than a "sweet tone." The question of Brahms's knowledge of and interest in the musical productions of the amercian negros was raised by Mr. H and not by me. You had mentioned what Brahms might have thought of this music and I responded that there seems little if any evidence that it was something of which he was aware; it certainly does not show in his work. You often cite Brahms and, on some occasions, in contexts where he has no obviously justifiable presence, such as this one. The name of the violinist you cite here, incidentally, is Stéphane Grapelli, not "Grapalli". But although incidental to the principal subject of this thread, it is an important question. Dvořák - cited by the Member - had an interest in the musical productions of negro groups (which led to his ninth, the weakest of his symphonies), and there was Delius in the same era, and no doubt a good many more. So it is almost certain that Brahms too, the leading composer of his day, was aware of these phenomena in all their sad and horrid detail. The long - altogether too absurdly long - article in Wikipædia about "jazz" ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz) is informative here. It had all been going on since at least the early nineteenth century. "In the early nineteenth century an increasing number of negro musicians learned to play European instruments, particularly the violin, which they used to parody European dance music in their own dances." In turn, minstrel show performers - silly white men - in their guilt painted their faces black and popularized such music internationally, combining syncopation with European harmonic accompaniment. And to this day silly white men in their guilt continue - figuratively - to paint their faces black.Leaving aside the once again patronising nature of your remarks here, the connection between what you write about and the jazz of the swing era is pretty tenuous - not entirely unconnected, of course, but tenuous all the same. Brahms, incidentally, was not "the leading composer of his day"; he was undoubtedly one of them, but not "the" one. You have surely heard of Liszt, Wagner, Verdi, Alkan, Bruckner, Tchaikovsky et al. But what I presume you now to be saying is that the music concerned that irks you so very much originated in Afro-American musicians and that white Americans took it up and developed - or, perhaps, in your view, further corrupted - it by turning it into what we subsequently came to know as early jazz. Is there, in any of the work of Dvořák or Delius (whom you mention) any sense of "glorifying sloth" or "sneering"? If indeed the music that you write about "sneered" at European music, why do you suppose that it would have had any interest for such European composers as these two, doubtless enhanced in each of their cases by their sojourns in America? I cannot say what or how much Brahms knew or thought about Afro-American music, but he had no American experiences as did Dvořák and Delius and, as far as I am aware, neither wrote about nor was influenced by such music at any time. Since we're speaking of Brahms, you are, of course, well aware of the extent to which Schönberg revered him; I do not know if you have yet listened to www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Cn1L_cgHPY as uploaded to YouTube by pianist Jack Gibbons but, if you have, I wonder if you really still believe that Schönberg was merely "having a laugh" at Gershwin in his tribute to him at the end of this short clip? look at this "tresillo rhythm" from the same article: Was it not in fact used by Brahms himself in several of his late and fascinating piano-forte compositions? Coincidence, surely, rather than influence! One might as well say something similar for his use of the hemiola, a device later turned almost into a virtue in itself by Medtner... . . . the African music that you state as having given rise to jazz in America . . . So now, leaving Brahms aside, we return to "jazz" and the question of the legitimacy of its performance on the Third Programme. Mr. H., in his strangely zealous defence thereof I have neither "defended" nor poured scorn upon jazz; I have merely taken issue with many of your remarks on it! I have little doubt that Schönberg would have done the same and also chided you for your wilful and silly corruption of his friend Gershwin's name that you then tried to pin likewise upon me in your alteration of a quote from me. That said, there is actually very little jazz on BBC Radio 3 in any case! attributes to me things I have not said. "Africa!" he cries; and again and again "Africa!" Well no - perhaps a misunderstanding - I did in reply 17 quote the O.E.D. which tells us that the word originated in Africa, but I did not say that the musical " style" originated there. Well, then, you should have been clearer in your expression, although it remains less than obvious what material difference this might supposedly make to what you're trying to argue. In fact I have several times explained the origination of this "jazz": it arose among the slave classes of northern amercia But the people to whom you refer here were for the most part Afro-Americans!... as a sneering parody, glorifying sloth, among poor persons not permitted to marry. In the circumstances they had every right to sing and play such degraded stuff. So these slaves were all slothful, were they? - and ask yourself how and why they were slaves in the first place? What seems wrong is that the vast bulk of ordinary amercians in their ignorance should take it up and puff it, By "ordinary" I presume you to mean "white". What about the indigenous Americans (as distinct from Afro-Americans) and their traditional musics? And, in any case, what makes you assume that slaves were all "slothful"? They'd surely have been of little use as slaves had they been so! But never mind that; do you really believe that, even by the time of Gottschalk, let alone Joplin, still less Gershwin, the kind of music of which you write retained any such obviously common characteristics (even to the extent that they ever possessed them in the first place)? Where's the "sloth glorification" or "sneering" in early Ragtime? - or in Rhapsody in Blue? Where do you find it in the music of the swing era? and make it the subject of university courses Since its has had a lengthy history (a fact which you yourself admit) and has for generations been an intgernationally recognised phenomenon, it has as much right to be the subject of academic research as other forms of music. and that clean-limbed Englishmen I've asked before and will ask again; who on earth are these people and what possible relevance do they have to the subject? To be more specific, why only "Englishmen" as distinct from men of other origins? - what about women? - and what in any case have the ablutionary habits and customs of anyone got to do with this? even, partly in ignorance and partly in guilt, should do likewise with grins on their faces. On what specific grounds should you seek to ascribe to the involvement of English people in jazz "ignorance" and "guilt"? "Ignorance" of what? "Guilt" about what? It is simply incongruous, and - like so much that the B.B.C. puts out to-day - in the end embarrassing. Again, "incongruous" with what, why and how? Is, for example, the Jewish influence in some of Alkan's music "incongruous" in the output of a Parisian Jewish colleague, friend and contemporary of Chopin and Liszt? Whilst I accept that certain of BBC R3's morning offerings are understandably embarrassing to some (including me, it should be said), the only other thing that's "embarrassing" here is the redundant hyphen in "to-day"... As I have said before (and, it seems, need yet again to reiterate), I am not here to "defend" jazz per se - only to defend it and its practitioners against the kind of patronising comments that you have repeatedly made about it here. The fact that you happen not to like any of it is not and cannot of itself constitute a value judgement, let alone one entitling you to pronounce vociferously and vehemantly upon what you consider to be the inappropriateness of its inclusion on programmes broadcast by BBC. Anyway, time for a shower; must clean those limbs, you see, even though I am not an "Englishman"...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 6:33:13 GMT -5
Well, I suppose that I am an "Englishman", ahinton, as I was born and brought up in London, although I tend to hesitate to call myself English. I am a Londoner, which by definition, also makes me English, British and European, but as my mother's family is Welsh, I prefer to say that I am a "Briton". Of course, if I am speaking French, an "Anglais" makes more sense, and the Germans might call me both an "Engländer" and kleines c, although probably not a little Englander or "eingestellter Engländer". This conveys the meaning of anti-European today, or anti-imperalist in the nineteenth century. As for classical, jazz and world music, I suppose that in a sense, world music reflects a globalist approach, whereas jazz has obvious American and African roots. Classical music is closely associated with Europe, but I feel that BBC Radio 3 should be inclusive rather than exclusive in its approach. You too, ahinton?
|
|
|
Post by ahinton on Oct 3, 2013 7:19:59 GMT -5
Well, I suppose that I am an "Englishman", ahinton, as I was born and brought up in London, although I tend to hesitate to call myself English. I am a Londoner, which by definition, also makes me English, British and European, but as my mother's family is Welsh, I prefer to say that I am a "Briton". Of course, if I am speaking French, an "Anglais" makes more sense, and the Germans might call me both an "Engländer" and kleines c, although probably not a little Englander or "eingestellter Engländer". This conveys the meaning of anti-European today, or anti-imperalist in the nineteenth century. As for classical, jazz and world music, I suppose that in a sense, world music reflects a globalist approach, whereas jazz has obvious American and African roots. Classical music is closely associated with Europe, but I feel that BBC Radio 3 should be inclusive rather than exclusive in its approach. You too, ahinton? Well, I am not an Englishman but my reason for referring to Englishmen here was prompted solely by Sydney Grew's earlier reference to them in general and to the "clean-limbed" variety thereof in particular, neither of which made the slightest bit of contextual sense to me and they still don't. I have no problem with the amount of time devoted to jazz on BBC R3 and can imagine that most of those who would have such a problem would bemoan the sheer lack of it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 7:47:10 GMT -5
A fellow writer once described Robert Macfarlane as straight from central casting, ahinton, a “clean-limbed Englishman, the type who would save the first XI from sporting disaster”. Writing in ' The Sunday Times' recently, Margarette Driscoll commented that Macfarlane, 37, needs every ounce of that clean-limbed capability right now for the scholar and adventurer — garlanded with praise for his accounts of wandering Britain’s wilderness — has a task on his hands even trickier than scoring a century as the last man in. The Sunday Times - Robert Macfarlane: I’m safe from the literary sharks in hereWe Need New Names by NoViolet Bulawayo (Chatto & Windus)
The Luminaries by Eleanor Catton (Granta)
Harvest by Jim Crace (Picador)
The Lowland by Jhumpa Lahiri (Bloomsbury)
A Tale for the Time Being by Ruth Ozeki (Canongate)
The Testament of Mary by Colm Tóibín (Penguin)[/i] The Man Booker Prize Shortlist 2013I suppose that Sydney too is a clean-limbed Englishman, the type who would save England from sporting disaster in the Ashes by batting out any innings against the Australians. Nevertheless, I suspect that Sydney would rather bat to the music of Johannes Brahms, metaphorically speaking, than Louis Armstrong. You, too, ahinton?
|
|
|
Post by ahinton on Oct 3, 2013 8:38:27 GMT -5
A fellow writer once described Robert Macfarlane as straight from central casting, ahinton, a “clean-limbed Englishman, the type who would save the first XI from sporting disaster”. Writing in ' The Sunday Times' recently, Margarette Driscoll commented that Macfarlane, 37, needs every ounce of that clean-limbed capability right now for the scholar and adventurer — garlanded with praise for his accounts of wandering Britain’s wilderness — has a task on his hands even trickier than scoring a century as the last man in. Ah, well, now everything about that reference is finally made clear. As mud (unless someone can come up with evidence of an umbilical conection between jazz and English people capable of saving a particular cricket team from anything - not that "Robert Macfarlane" sounds especially "English" to me in any case). I suppose that Sydney too is a clean-limbed Englishman, the type who would save England from sporting disaster in the Ashes by batting out any innings against the Australians. I have no idea either whether he is English or how often he takes a shower and neither is really any of my business; as I believe he currently resides in the Antipodes, however, I'm not so sure that he would necessarily choose to do this even if he could. Nevertheless, I suspect that Sydney would rather bat to the music of Johannes Brahms, metaphorically speaking, than Louis Armstrong. Ignoring the fact that it's perfectly possible (though not of course compulsory) to do both. You, too, ahinton? I am no cricketer, metaphorically or literally...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 9:35:01 GMT -5
Metaphorically speaking, ahinton, how would you choose to describe yourself?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 10:27:47 GMT -5
Found an actor working in my local tearoom, we to discuss some projects, must find a jazz band to do some jazz there and other local venues.... jazzzzzz is a good way to enjoy an evening.
I recently read a book about medieval villages, the best bit was the festivals... up with cider and evenings entertainments.....
|
|
|
Post by ahinton on Oct 3, 2013 11:14:44 GMT -5
Metaphorically speaking, ahinton, how would you choose to describe yourself? I would not describe myself metaphorically, either by choice or otherwise.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 11:21:10 GMT -5
Metaphorically speaking, I would naturally describe myself as a kleines c online, ahinton. Offline, I am happy with any metaphor you fancy! Incidentally, there is a Medway Jazz Society in Kent, which I found by googling, Jason. You might want to contact them to find out who would be prepared to play a gig in Staplehurst, rather than at the Queen Charlotte pub in Rochester. Medway JazzWhen I was working in Frankfurt-am-Main in the 'nineties, I used to go to a jazz club on Monday nights after work, but the legendary Künstlerkeller is now closed.
|
|