|
Post by ahinton on Mar 12, 2013 14:23:39 GMT -5
Oh dear, someone else unhappy with Mr Adams's popularity too?? "Else"? Who are the others, then?! Come-come, Mr Hinton, don't be ungrateful for the moral support you've had! [/quote] Excuse me? Now, please come clean - have you actually heard either of these wonderful Carter or Sessions operas yourself? Yes - the Sessions only once and the Carter is one of which I possess a recording. But please answer my questions about opera and composer validity that I appear so far to have posed to no avail! And please also let the forum know if you've now taken on board that I have no qualms about, let alone envy of, Mr Adams's fame and fortune. Thanks in advance!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2013 14:41:35 GMT -5
Never mind the quality feel the popularity eh? Oh dear, someone else unhappy with Mr Adams's popularity too?? Out of interest, has anyone here ever heard a note of either of these two works?? What can you tell us about them? I have heard and seen the Carter, it's available on the net somewhere I believe. Not a medium he seemed comfortable in. An odd choice at that point in his career.
|
|
|
Post by neilmcgowan on Mar 13, 2013 10:23:35 GMT -5
But please answer my questions about opera and composer validity that I appear so far to have posed to no avail! Aha, I assumed the questions were facetious, and not intended to produce a response? Opera, as Herr Wagner observed, is a Gesamtkunstwerk - a holistic art-work. It unites the disciplines of drama, poetry, music and the visual arts in one performance. By inference, therefore, musical works outside the realm of complete-art-works must be less-than-complete. The greatest composers have understood this, and most of them attempted to write operas. Many succeeded, although it must be said that even major names failed (Liszt, Schubert, Mendelssohn). The story of Mendelssohn is especially tragic, as he was inspired to write opera after falling in love with an operatic soprano, with whom he imagined he might enjoy both creative and earthly bliss. Sadly, it was not to be. It need not always be thus. Leos Janacek wrote almost nothing for the opera-house (after being snubbed by its establishment, it must be said) until he was 50 - when he fell in love with a much younger woman at a spa resort. His extraordinary outpouring of operas in his latter career was, in great part, an attempt to prove his worth to this young woman (although she was utterly indifferent to the results, it must be said). Opera is, essentially, the portrayal of heightened emotion. Some emotionally cold fish - such as your Mr Babbitt - eschew this kind of emotion, and even look askance at it. Perhaps that is why I find so very, very little of interest in the ascetic acrostics he wrote as music? Brahms, by all reports, revelled in being considered an emotionless man.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2013 10:52:12 GMT -5
As you know, Neil McGowan, I am no musician, so my views on music and opera can and arguably should be discounted by everyone reading The Third. Richard Wagner may be completely right!
Nevertheless, in my opinion, some of the greatest composers of all time, for example Johann Sebastian Bach, have never written an opera. Ludwig van Beethoven struggled to write one, 'Fidelio', and it happens to be one of my favourites.
My view would therefore be that whether a composer writes an opera or not is neither here nor there. What really matters is the quality of the music. As a scientist, of course, I struggle to work out how to measure the quality of music, or indeed, any art. Any clues, ahinton?
|
|
|
Post by ahinton on Mar 13, 2013 10:52:47 GMT -5
But please answer my questions about opera and composer validity that I appear so far to have posed to no avail! Aha, I assumed the questions were facetious, and not intended to produce a response? Opera, as Herr Wagner observed, is a Gesamtkunstwerk - a holistic art-work. It unites the disciplines of drama, poetry, music and the visual arts in one performance. By inference, therefore, musical works outside the realm of complete-art-works must be less-than-complete. Provided, of course, that one accepts the words of Wagner as gospel! Now I yield to no one in my admiration and love for Wagner's finest work (and, of course, he had originally intended to be a playwright), but what might represent completion for one composer may not necessarily do so for another; I've already named quite a few distinguished ones who eschewed opera altogether. Opera is, essentially, the portrayal of heightened emotion. Some emotionally cold fish - such as your Mr Babbitt - eschew this kind of emotion, and even look askance at it. Perhaps that is why I find so very, very little of interest in the ascetic acrostics he wrote as music? Brahms, by all reports, revelled in being considered an emotionless man. That's not at all true of Mr Babbitt, actually - and he certainly is not MY Mr Babbitt! And on what specific grounds do you base your assumption that he was an "emotionally cold fish"? Did you know him or study with him? And would you say the same of Sessions and Carter? I do not seek to speak for Brahms, but I would be both astonished and dismayed - nay, horrified - at the prospect of anyone describing either my music or me personally as "emotionless". It is not necessary to write for the stage in order that a composer express all manner of emotions; if it were, I might as well stick my pen in the bin right now! But anyway - back to Mr Adams, methinks!...
|
|
|
Post by neilmcgowan on Mar 13, 2013 11:34:00 GMT -5
The case of Bach is an interesting one. Most studies of his working methods confirm that he was obliged to work flat-out to keep pace with the rapacious demands of his religious employers. There was only one public opera-house in German-speaking countries at the time - the Goosemarket Theatre in distant Hamburg. It seems quite likely that Bach would not have bothered writing works for which he saw no chance of performance. However, private opera houses existed, and Telemann, Hasse and Graun were active in producing German & Italian operas for these theatres. However, Bach did indeed write theatrical works, even if they are not titled 'operas'. Both the Coffee Cantata and the Peasant Cantata seem intended for some kind of staged performance - most probably by the Student Musical Societies which flourished at the time. Despite this, JS Bach himself seems to have taken a great interest in opera. CPE Bach tells us that his father's music library - which was acquired at the personal cost of copying all the works in it by hand - contained operas by Vivaldi, Telemann, Landi and Hasse.
The obvious foil to Bach in this respect is Handel - who saw there was no future in Germany for an operatic composer, packed his bags and left. He never returned.
Isn't unusual that the composers who were based in stern Protestant countries mostly failed to write operas? Amsterdam is often said to have been the most advanced city in C17th Europe - yet it produced nothing in the way of opera at all, whilst Purcell, Lully, Cavalli and Monteverdi, Duron and Literes were all hard at it in Britain, France, Italy and Spain.
It's interesting to speculate whether this was because the society of C17th Germany or Holland was intolerant - or at least indifferent - to opera, or whether it produced composers who were emotionally incapable of writing it?
|
|
|
Post by ahinton on Mar 13, 2013 13:02:37 GMT -5
The case of Bach is an interesting one. Most studies of his working methods confirm that he was obliged to work flat-out to keep pace with the rapacious demands of his religious employers. There was only one public opera-house in German-speaking countries at the time - the Goosemarket Theatre in distant Hamburg. It seems quite likely that Bach would not have bothered writing works for which he saw no chance of performance. However, private opera houses existed, and Telemann, Hasse and Graun were active in producing German & Italian operas for these theatres. However, Bach did indeed write theatrical works, even if they are not titled 'operas'. Both the Coffee Cantata and the Peasant Cantata seem intended for some kind of staged performance - most probably by the Student Musical Societies which flourished at the time. Despite this, JS Bach himself seems to have taken a great interest in opera. CPE Bach tells us that his father's music library - which was acquired at the personal cost of copying all the works in it by hand - contained operas by Vivaldi, Telemann, Landi and Hasse.
The obvious foil to Bach in this respect is Handel - who saw there was no future in Germany for an operatic composer, packed his bags and left. He never returned.
Isn't unusual that the composers who were based in stern Protestant countries mostly failed to write operas? Amsterdam is often said to have been the most advanced city in C17th Europe - yet it produced nothing in the way of opera at all, whilst Purcell, Lully, Cavalli and Monteverdi, Duron and Literes were all hard at it in Britain, France, Italy and Spain.
It's interesting to speculate whether this was because the society of C17th Germany or Holland was intolerant - or at least indifferent - to opera, or whether it produced composers who were emotionally incapable of writing it?Some interesting facts and thoughts here - but at the risk of appearing to repeat myself, the implied notion that composers eschew (and have eschewed) the writing of stage works solely as a consequence of being "emotionally incapable" of doing so simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny to the extent that such an assertion would be well-nigh impossible to prove; there is likewise no demonstrable sense that composers who write no string quartets or symphonies are "emotionally incapable" of doing so. Composers should write what they can in the best ways that they can and it seems inconceivable to me that every composer would necessarily expect - or indeed be expected - to be both capable and desirous of writing stage works.
|
|
|
Post by neilmcgowan on Mar 13, 2013 13:29:49 GMT -5
Composers should write what they can in the best ways that they can and it seems inconceivable to me that every composer would necessarily expect - or indeed be expected - to be both capable and desirous of writing stage works. That's certainly true in today's laisser-faire world, especially if composers have other income (teaching, grants & endowments, etc) which enables them to pick and choose. My point is that in earlier eras this luxury was not always available. Brahms couldn't afford to write operas - his patrons would have spurned him. Wagner couldn't afford not to.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2013 13:47:42 GMT -5
I am not sure that this is true, Neil McGowan. It is true, for example, that Johannes Brahms never wrote an opera. Speaking as a businessman, however, I would doubt that this was because there wasn't a market for operas in late-ninteenth century Germany. Of course, I take your point about early eighteenth century opera in Germany and Johann Sebastian Bach. As for Richard Wagner, he was roughly a contemporary of Johannes Brahms. Was there some kind of philosophical disagreement between them?
|
|
|
Post by neilmcgowan on Mar 14, 2013 0:49:52 GMT -5
I am not sure that this is true, Neil McGowan. It is true, for example, that Johannes Brahms never wrote an opera. Speaking as a businessman, however, I would doubt that this was because there wasn't a market for operas in late-ninteenth century Germany. Perhaps I've explained my point badly Brahms was taken-up by the newly-enfranchised Middle Classes in Germany, who were full of anti-Catholic, proto-Nationalist fervour. Which was the chicken, and which the egg, is unclear. But the result was that Brahms went off digging-up old German ecclesiastical music - to bolster Germany's claims to be just as good as the Catholics and their Palestrina etc. In lockstep with the new Germany's anti-Catholic purges (all Catholics were removed from their jobs in governmental administration) Brahms produced his 'German Requiem' - a substitute for the Catholic Requiem. Note that he called it a German Requiem - placing its nationalist credentials on a higher plane than the work's religious content. When I say Brahms 'could not afford' to write German opera - I mean that he would have been deserted by his middle-class supporters. Brahms always played to the gallery, writing what would please his small-minded nationalist fan-club. These were meat-and-potatoes people who wouldn't have gone near an opera-house any more than they would have gone near a synagogue. Was there some kind of philosophical disagreement between them?
The fallout between Wagner and Brahms is one of the most legendary disputes in musical history. However, to say it happened between the two men themselves is slightly incorrect - it was rather an idealogical clash between their supporters. The situation was hugely inflamed by the influential music critic Hanslick, who wrote unashamedly in favour of Brahms, and lambasted Wagner at every opportunity. The situation became so inflammatory that when Wagner came to write DIE MEISTERSINGER, he originally intended to name the oafish "Marker' of the Prize Song Competition Hans Lick. Wagner was warned off such an overt sleight by his closer colleagues, and eventually the Marker was instead named 'Beckmesser' ('Backstabber'). The pro-Wagnerian symphonist and church organist Bruckner became unwillingly embroiled in this oafish quarrel. On hearing that Bruckner supported Wagner, Hanslick made it his business to have all performances of Bruckner's works wrecked or prevented. In fact throughout his lifetime Bruckner never managed to get a single of his works professionally published, and such performances as were achieved were mostly given by amateurs only. (The exception was his Requiem, which was published by an association devoted to religious choral works). Much more could be written on this topic, and indeed much of it was motivated by political, rather than musical machinations. However, I would instead refer you to the (very) extensive information available on the internet. Things have still to calm down, and a great deal of what you will find written today retains its flame-laden and viciously-argued rhetoric. A user on the r3ok forum, for example, spent two days gathering evidence against me, and quoting it in absurd postings... when he began to suspect that my feelings towards Brahms and his music were less than worshipful One hundred years later, the influential Italian composer and pedagogue Busoni was giving lessons in pre-WW2 Berlin to young composers. His Brahmsian hatred of Wagner was so fierce that he would not even refer to the composer by name - preferring to call him 'that man', or at best 'Herr W'.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2013 3:25:44 GMT -5
Thank you for the clear explanation of the differences between Johannes Brahms and Richard Wagner, Neil McGowan. It made fascinating reading for me!
I should perhaps confess that I like the music of both Brahms and Wagner, although I guess that if pushed, I would say that Wagner probably has the edge. His contribution to the history of opera is unsurpassed.
As for John Adams, on topic, he has written some very controversial operas over the past forty odd years, dealing with issues such as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the rise of China and weapons of mass destruction. In my opinion, John Adams's work merits serious discussion, and not just amongst musicians. These are all amongst the great issues of our time!
|
|
|
Post by neilmcgowan on Mar 14, 2013 4:05:08 GMT -5
These are all amongst the great issues of our time! Indeed so. Another argument in support of the idea that opera is the summit of achievement in music
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2013 4:29:40 GMT -5
This distinction was thoroughly written up by Felix Weingarter - conductor of the Royal Symphony Concerts, Berlin, and of the KAIM Orchestra, Munich - who devoted an entire book to it. His book is entitled "The Symphony since Beethoven" and may be downloaded by clicking on HTTPS here: archive.org/details/cu31924021744218We recommend its perusal and inward digestion to all at The Third do we not kleines c. Does it not in the end come down to absolute music versus programme music? My own æsthetical notions say that nothing in a work of true Art should depend upon any external reference. In the case of Art-Music the medium consists of the musical tones. When one drags in, or tacks on, the stories of Don Giovanni, Leonore, Hamlet, Alberich and so on, all these do is to detract from the music as Art. Two of the works which mean most to me are Wagner's opera "Tristan" and Scryabine's symphonic "Poem of Ecstasy" - and their appeal stems from precisely the same reasons in each case, namely their harmonies and the purely musical beauty of their stirring melodies. The story of Tristan and some woman means nothing to me; I can take it or leave it; it is not part of the medium as I - at least - see it. I would simply encourage any singers involved to sing as quietly as they can and not to intrude, because otherwise they spoil the music - they too do not form part of the medium. But I daresay there are others with a different view of the Gesamtkunstwerk.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2013 6:30:43 GMT -5
I tend to feel that a good story, like 'Tristan und Isolde', for example, can add to the music, Sydney Grew. Of course, you can enjoy Richard Wagner's masterpiece without understanding a word of what is being sung. But nevertheless, surely an understanding of the drama can add to our appreciation of the music?
Curiously, the first time I saw 'Tristan', Sydney Grew, I went blind, in the sense that I did not know anything about the opera, the music or the story behind it. I loved it. The second time I saw it, also at English National Opera (ENO), I had done a lot of research on the opera, the music and the story behind it. I understood almost everything that was going on on stage. Nevertheless, I liked it far less, if only because the music was not quite as good.
So in this specific sense, the story can be irrelevant to my personal enjoyment of the opera! Does this put me more in the Brahms camp than the Wagner camp, Sydney Grew?
|
|
|
Post by ahinton on Mar 14, 2013 8:59:33 GMT -5
These are all amongst the great issues of our time! Indeed so. Another argument in support of the idea that opera is the summit of achievement in music No - on several. Firstly, dealing with "great issues of our time" does not necessarily a great opera make. Secondly, dealing with mythological or historical tales does not necessarily stand in the way of operatic greatness (Sydney Grew has cited Tristan und Isolde and, whilst I accept only half of what he says about it, it was hardly about the burning contemporary issues of the mid-19th century). Thirdly, opera is one of a number of summits of achievement in the history of Western music. But the Wagner/Brahms conflict was indeed a very real one at the time and one for which you give a balanced view both of its origins in and its perpetuation by others as distinct from the two composers themselves being locked into some kind of personal "daggers drawn" situation. One might argue that Bruckner sought a kind of "third way" in that, for all his fervent support and admiration for Wagner, he wrote no stage works and composed symphonies just as Brahms did - and this might have made more difference than it did a the time had the fate of Bruckner's major works been better than it was during his lifetime. What is sometimes forgotten in all of this is that both Brahms and Wagner were broadly equal in their reverence for Beethoven. And then along came Schönberg who, while in his early days out-Wagnering Wagner like no one else on earth, was at the same time such a devotee of Brahms that he came to devote by far the largest chapter of his Style and Idea to him! And what of Schönberg and Mahler - both Jews - revering Wagner as they did?
|
|