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Post by ahinton on Oct 22, 2013 4:31:08 GMT -5
I must confess to ignorance of any ideas that grew out of Christian teachings centuries ago that pronounced upon jazz . . . Mr. H I fear you are arguing with yourself. Then let me hasten to assure you that your fear is entirely unfounded. You are the only one who keeps on suggesting that the Arch-bishop or Christian teachings might have any connection with "jazz bands." Not at all. I did not raise the spectre of such folk; you did, in an attempt to illustrate something or other about people in authority who should be able to exercise it in ways which it would nevertheless appear are beyond their remit or areas of expertise. The reason for this goes back to your remarks about people in authority who ought to be able to do something about educating people away from involvement in jazz. Some time ago this thread moved right away from "jazz" - dropped the subject completely - and we are now discussing the way ideas are transmitted down the ages. Nothing to do with jazz; nothing to do with any kind of music even! Since when? Please re-examine the latest posts in this thread that reveal not a shred of evidence that the topic had moved away from that subject! What you clearly mean instead is that, having failed to persuade members here of your arguments about it, you have decided to take your ball away by moving away from the subject and on to another one as though all other contributors to this discussion had already done the same or at least agreed to do so - which the evidence above shows not to be the case!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 8:21:54 GMT -5
Good afternoon to you all! I trust that all is well with all of you today, despite the rain. If I may address your final point directly, ahinton: " ... Please re-examine the latest posts in this thread that reveal not a shred of evidence that the topic had moved away from that subject! What you clearly mean instead is that, having failed to persuade members here of your arguments about it, you have decided to take your ball away by moving away from the subject and on to another one as though all other contributors to this discussion had already done the same or at least agreed to do so - which the evidence above shows not to be the case!" Well, as the other (main) contributor to this discussion and indeed, ' The Third', I should perhaps confess that I have attempted to argue that Jazz has a place in church, on Radio 3 and even in academia, although my academic and professional background obviously lies elsewhere. It is worth pointing out to ahinton that kleines c's original topic for this particular thread is the new schedule for Radio 3 at the weekend, with the poll question of whether Roger Wright has done a good job as Controller of BBC Radio 3? Jazz and world music are important elements to this discussion, because both face cuts on 3. Sydney probably takes the view that there should be only classical rather than jazz and world music on 3, whereas kleines c has always been a strong supporter of classical, jazz, world music and speech and drama on 3. My critique, however, has always been that Roger Wright should dumb up rather than dumb down. For Sydney, playing jazz on 3 is worse than dumbing down: it corrupts the world; for kleines c, playing great jazz on 3 has the potential to be educational, informative and entertaining. Where do you stand, ahinton?
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Post by ahinton on Oct 22, 2013 8:33:54 GMT -5
Well, as the other (main) contributor to this discussion and indeed, ' The Third', I should perhaps confess that I have attempted to argue that Jazz has a place in church, on Radio 3 and even in academia, although my academic and professional background obviously lies elsewhere. Indeed; my point was that this subject had not been shunted off into the sidelines as suggested. It is worth pointing out to ahinton that kleines c's original topic for this particular thread is the new schedule for Radio 3 at the weekend, with the poll question of whether Roger Wright has done a good job as Controller of BBC Radio 3? I'm already aware of that, just as I am that SG's foray (not Fauré) into jazz and its place on Radio 3 and in the wider world has turned out to be a considerable distraction, at least in terms of proportionality. Jazz and world music are important elements to this discussion, because both face cuts on 3. Sydney probably takes the view that there should be only classical rather than jazz and world music on 3, whereas kleines c has always been a strong supporter of classical, jazz, world music and speech and drama on 3. My critique, however, has always been that Roger Wright should dumb up rather than dumb down. With that i cannot but agree wholeheartedly. For Sydney, playing jazz on 3 is worse than dumbing down: it corrupts the world; for kleines c, playing great jazz on 3 has the potential to be educational, informative and entertaining. Where do you stand, ahinton? I sit rather than stand when typing! I have no evidence to the effect that jazz corrupts anyone or anything, let alone the entire planet and, as SG's bald statements that they nevertheless do so are wholly unsupported by any kind of evidence, my view of that remains unchanged. There is indeed room for jazz, world music et al on Radio 3 in my view, especially given that it is a 24/7 channel so there's no shortage of space allotted to what it can offer, although, speaking personally, I remain inclined to believe that it would be best served by Western "classical" music of the past millenium or so constituting the backbone of its presentation; I also believe that doing away with some of the occasionally inane chatter that has no informative bearing on the music broadcast would save not only some time but some face as well - that's not to commend drastic reductions in the words uttered on Radio 3 but to make a plea for the majority of such words to be intelligent, informative and largely about the music, its performers as performers and its composers as composers.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 9:01:36 GMT -5
The occasionally 'inane chatter' on BBC Radio 3 is an interesting point, ahinton. I suppose that when I go to a party, perhaps a Radio 3 party at the Proms or the Free Thinking Festival, or even a more serious meeting elsewhere, there is often a lot of inane chatter. Charitably, you could call it small talk, and as a businessman, I realise that small talk can be just as valuable to me as big talk. Lord Clark of ' Civilisation' made the point that in eighteenth century France, Sydney, the influence of women was, on the whole, benevolent; and they were the creators of that curious institution of the eighteenth century, the salon. A good discussion forum has certain similarities, although I tend to prefer to combine online with offline salons. Sean Rafferty curiously has a Friday salon ' In Tune', often live, where he tries to do the same. Upon reflection, I think that there is a place for making people feel at ease, and if this involves a bit of inane chatter about the weather, for example, or football, or even about what you did last night, it can help bring more people into the conversation! This is, in my opinion, generally a good thing. Of course, it is horses for courses! Some people are only going to want to listen to and about serious music, for example, whereas others are going to want to put that serious music, for example, jazz, in a wider cultural context. This is how it should be, ahinton?
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Post by ahinton on Oct 22, 2013 9:27:32 GMT -5
The occasionally 'inane chatter' is an interesting point, ahinton. I suppose that when I go to a party, or a meeting, there is often a lot of inane chatter. Charitably, you could call it small talk, and as a businessman, I realise that small talk can be just as valuable to me as big talk. Lord Clark of ' Civilisation' made the point that in eighteenth century France, Sydney, the influence of women was, on the whole, benevolent; and they were the creators of that curious institution of the eighteenth century, the salon. A good discussion forum has certain similarities, although I tend to prefer to combine online with offline. Sean Rafferty curiously has a Friday salon ' In Tune', often live, where he tries to do the same. Upon reflection, I think that there is a place for making people feel at ease, and if this involves a bit of inane chatter about the weather, for example, or football, or even about what you did last night, it can help bring more people into the conversation! This is, in my opinion, generally a good thing. Of course, it is horses for courses! Some people are only going to want to listen to and about serious music, for example, whereas others are going to want to put that serious music, for example, jazz, in a wider cultural context. This is how it should be, ahinton? As I have no intention to sound dogmatic, I would not say that this or that is how something "should" be when it's intended for millions of others besides myself. That said, the kind of "inane chatter" to which I was referring is (a) the email / phone-in / text / tweet stuff where some kind of listener participation, irrespective of its possible merits, becomes a part of the programmes that encourage it and risks drawing due attention away from the presentation itself and towards the contributions of members of the public, which in turn risks demeaning any such programmes - which of us wants to hear most of what listeners have to say about whatever might come into their heads during and as part of such programmes? - and (b) overly familiar personal gossipy stuff about performers, composers and the like when it is what they do professionally as performers, composers and the like that is of the essence for a channel like Radio 3. I therefore do not, of course, include in the descriptor "idle chatter" intelligent and informative discussions, conversations et al about the music itself and its performance or about aspects of music history and the like. There's nothing inherently "wrong" with at least some of that chatter; my concern is that Radio 3 is not the best place for it. Chats in the pub, at parties, over the phone or anywhere else do not require funding by licence payers! I don't ask to be made to feel "comfortable" or "at ease" when listening to Radio 3; I want to be excited, stimulated, interested, disturbed and the rest by what I hear. There are plenty of other places and circumstances in which to feel "comfortable and "at ease"; listening to Miles Davis, Dmitry Shostakovich, William Byrd, Arnold Schönberg and Art Tatum on Radio 3 isn't one of them! But that's only my take on it. The best that Radio 3 has ever offered during its history is a credit to music broadcasting anywhere in the world; sadly, Radio 3 has not always been at its best all of the time.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 10:11:06 GMT -5
I suppose that the chat room is logically the best place for chatter, ahinton, whether online or off. The discussion forum is arguably the best place for online discussion, too, although I would unhesitatingly recommend a real forum, agora, market place or even a good pub as well. Nag's HeadAs for BBC Radio 3, well, as you have probably worked out over the past decade or so, I like a good chat, although what I consider a good chat to be, others might consider to be a very bad chat indeed, descending into inane chatter! You cannot make one straight thing out of the crooked timber of humanity, ahinton! PS Or can you, Sydney?
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Post by ahinton on Oct 22, 2013 11:31:34 GMT -5
I suppose that the chat room is logically the best place for chatter, ahinton, whether online or off. The discussion forum is arguably the best place for online discussion, too, although I would unhesitatingly recommend a real forum, agora, market place or even a good pub as well. Nag's HeadAs for BBC Radio 3, well, as you have probably worked out over the past decade or so, I like a good chat, although what I consider a good chat to be, others might consider to be a very bad chat indeed, descending into inane chatter! You cannot make one straight thing out of the crooked timber of humanity, ahinton! PS Or can you, Sydney? You've used that line before but, whilst I cannot and do not seek to speak for SG, I am not trying to do or indeed to advocate any such thing myself; I merely sought to point out that there are good and bad places for all sorts of things including chatter of various kinds - no more, no less.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 14:14:19 GMT -5
Yes, but amongst the 2 million listeners who actually tune into BBC Radio 3, some are going to like a bit of chat, like kleines c, whereas others are going to prefer something far more formal. Of course, it could be argued that kleines c ought to push off and listen to more populist classical music on Classic FM, with everyone else (well, six million listeners), but I would ultimately object. For a start, I quite like intelligent discussion, ahinton, as you will have observed, and Radio 3 does a bit, even if they sometimes call it free thinking! So R3 does, in a profound sense, have to accommodate not only the taste of ahinton and the Friends of Radio 3 (FoR3), but also the taste of kleines c and the gang. As for Sydney, well, the paradox is that we can still meet here to chat in ' The Third', if nowhere else! You too, Gerard?
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Post by Gerard on Oct 22, 2013 14:17:31 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 14:48:05 GMT -5
The merits of Shostakovich are up for a discussion, Gerard. He was, in my opinion, one of the greatest composers of the twentieth century. Of course, I am aware that he liked jazz, but perhaps you are missing what made much of his music so good?
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Post by ahinton on Oct 22, 2013 15:32:12 GMT -5
The merits of Shostakovich are up for a discussion, Gerard. He was, in my opinion, one of the greatest composers of the twentieth century. Of course, I am aware that he liked jazz, but perhaps you are missing what made much of his music so good? Jazz appreciation or no jazz appreciation, Dmitry Dmitryevich Shostakovich was exactly as you describe him; I have written before that I believe that he has touched more hearts and minds across the world than almost any other composer active entirely within the last century.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2013 19:24:32 GMT -5
We all know do we not that nomenclature should express function. Therefore I propose that the B.B.C. (British Broadcasting Corporation) now be renamed to reflect its present function: B.B.Y.B.C. (British Branch of the Yankee Broadcasting Corporation).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2013 2:22:22 GMT -5
You do not like Yankees, Sydney?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 9:59:29 GMT -5
I have written before that I believe that he has touched more hearts and minds across the world than almost any other composer active entirely within the last century. That appears to be a far from universally-held view. Here is Gerald Abraham:
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Post by ahinton on Jan 7, 2014 10:54:14 GMT -5
I have written before that I believe that he has touched more hearts and minds across the world than almost any other composer active entirely within the last century. That appears to be a far from universally-held view. Here is Gerald Abraham: Yes, "here is Gerald Abraham" - again! - as unreliable a source of anything genuinely informative and well considered as ever. OK, Testimony is indeed controversial even to this day and the extent to which it does or does not represnet Shostoakovich's thoughts anbout anything or anyone accordingly remains open to doubt. Abraham's concession in respect of the Fitzwilliam Quartet (a still surviving ensemble whose viola player has remained the same thoughout the four decades and more of its existence) is interesting in that said viola player, Alan George, has said on severaloccasions that Shostakovich sadi very little during the ocasion on which he attended their rehearsals. The point here, however, is that the statement that I made, to which you cite the antedilivianist Abraham alone as providing a challenging view, holds good regardless in terms of the sheer numbers of performances, broadcasts and recordings of Shostakovich's music in so very many countries ever since the success of the first symphony almost 90 years ago.
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