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Post by ahinton on Oct 21, 2013 7:40:22 GMT -5
For the record, Justin Welby has no particular interest in jazz, Sydney, and his hobbies include "most things French and sailing" So we can perhaps conclude that, whilst he appears to have no especial interest in the work, say, of Stéphane Grapelli or Michel Petrucciani, his presumed ability to sail close to the wind might come in useful in his current incumbency?...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2013 8:06:46 GMT -5
If I may address your final question directly, ahinton: For the record, Justin Welby has no particular interest in jazz, Sydney, and his hobbies include "most things French and sailing" So we can perhaps conclude that, whilst he appears to have no especial interest in the work, say, of Stéphane Grapelli or Michel Petrucciani, his presumed ability to sail close to the wind might come in useful in his current incumbency?... I don't envy Justin his job, ahinton, as the Church of England is riven by internal disputes, notably over the status and role of women and homosexuals within the Church. To be honest, I preferred Rowan, but he, too, struggled to keep the Anglican Communion together! So sailing close to the wind may be Justin's only option. If he is reading ' The Third', my only advice would be to accelerate, in the hope that Justin can reach a safe haven ahead of the gathering gale. As for French jazz, I have a friend who played at Marciac in the summer. Jazz in MarciacYou may be missing a trick, Sydney!
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Post by ahinton on Oct 21, 2013 8:55:42 GMT -5
If I may address your final question directly, ahinton: So we can perhaps conclude that, whilst he appears to have no especial interest in the work, say, of Stéphane Grapelli or Michel Petrucciani, his presumed ability to sail close to the wind might come in useful in his current incumbency?... I don't envy Justin his job, ahinton, as the Church of England is riven by internal disputes, notably over the status and role of women and homosexuals within the Church. To be honest, I preferred Rowan, but he, too, struggled to keep the Anglican Communion together! So sailing close to the wind may be Justin's only option. If he is reading ' The Third', my only advice would be to accelerate, in the hope that Justin can reach a safe haven ahead of the gathering gale. As for French jazz, I have a friend who played at Marciac in the summer. Well, he didn't have to take up his post and would presumably have declined to do so had he wished to do something else instead but, in any case, I mention him only because SG referred to him and should perhaps clarify that I no more see the contextual point of so doing in this thread now than I did when SG made that reference therein.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2013 9:53:33 GMT -5
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Post by ahinton on Oct 21, 2013 10:51:26 GMT -5
Not much - except for the welcome prospect of all those saxes! As a matter of fact, I included four members of that family - soprano, alto, baritone and contrabass - in a wind ensemble piece entitled Concerto for 22 Instruments some years ago (though there's no discernible jazz elements or influence therein)...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2013 19:03:35 GMT -5
In turning to Grove's for a discussion of musical criticism I had expected to find an authoritative article contributed by a straight-backed Englishman, of the Parry or Bosanquet mould. What I in fact found though was an article contributed by a Mr. Maus, and I see now how wrong I was to have accepted it without further question. I must admit that some of the things he says there did make me uncomfortable, so I extracted only the part relating to Kant's views. From the start this Maus worried me! And a little digging has now shown how right I was. Fred [ sic] Everett Maus, we find, teaches music at some northern amercian "University." Wouldn't you know it! "His research interests include theory and analysis, gender and sexuality, popular music, aesthetics and dramatic and narrative aspects of instrumental music. He is the author of 'Queer Listening,'" among much else. In fact his disgraceful essay "Queer Listening" is a truly extraordinary piece. It contains nothing important about music, but there are pages upon pages about a) Lesbians, and b) "bottoms" - about both of which subjects the author appears to be obsessed. I will say no more about it here, but any members with an interest in "what sexual models may exist for the concert-goer’s position" may consult it here: www.transposition-revue.org/Classical-Concert-Music-and-Queer?lang=frSuffice to say that a) Mr. Maus is not at all the serious straight-backed authority I was seeking, and b) I will not cite Grove's so unthinkingly in future!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2013 19:10:34 GMT -5
To be honest, I preferred Rowan . . . No one could disagree with the Member on that point. In fact I confess that when citing the Arch-bishop as an authority it must have been Dr. Williams I had in mind. Upon consulting the link the Member kindly provided we see that: 1) Following a rejection of female bishops by the General Synod in November 2012, Welby spoke of a "Very grim day, most of all for women priests and supporters." How wrong the "arch-bishop" is! What a bad example! 2) And in March 2013 he stated that "My understanding of sexual ethics has been that, regardless of whether it's gay [ sic] or straight [ sic], sex [ sic] outside marriage is wrong." Again, how simply wrong this "arch-bishop"! (And I would love to see his definition of "sex.") I have the feeling that the arch-bishop lark all began with a conversation in a bar among a gang of old Etonians after "work." Discussing their ambitions one of them (Justin Welby) cried "I shall become arch-bishop!" (You know how confidently assertive they can be. The world their oyster.) But now he claims that the call came from an amercian, Mr. Wimber, former keyboard player with a jazz "band"! For the third time, utterly utterly wrong, and this time about religion itself! www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9668919/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-You-have-no-future-in-the-Church.htmlThe sensible Bishop of Kensington rightly informed him that there was no place for him in the Church of England. Subsequent events - a tragedy that will be written up by some future Shakespeare. T. W. Earp of Exeter College, Oxford, matriculated in Michaelmas Term, 1911.
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Post by ahinton on Oct 21, 2013 20:17:07 GMT -5
In turning to Grove's for a discussion of musical criticism I had expected to find an authoritative article contributed by a straight-backed Englishman, of the Parry or Bosanquet mould. Why would you expect a Grove article to be written by an Englishman? Why one with a "straight back"? - what ever does the spinal health of a Grove contributor have to do with the content and nature of his/her contributions? And, for taht matter, "Parry" and "Bosanquet" don't sound especially "English" to me! What I in fact found though was an article contributed by a Mr. Maus, and I see now how wrong I was to have accepted it without further question. I must admit that some of the things he says there did make me uncomfortable, so I extracted only the part relating to Kant's views. But he wasn't a "straight backed Englishman" either!... From the start this Maus worried me! And a little digging has now shown how right I was. Fred [ sic] Everett Maus, we find, teaches music at some northern amercian "University." Wouldn't you know it! No, I wouldn't have known it had you not pointed it out but, in any case, what's wrong with that in principle? Someone has to do this! what sexual models may exist for the concert-goer’s position ...which is not a "straight backed" one, presumably... Suffice to say that a) Mr. Maus is not at all the serious straight-backed authority I was seeking, and b) I will not cite Grove's so unthinkingly in future! You seem to be as obsessed with straight backs as you claim Mr Maus to be with bottoms...
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Post by ahinton on Oct 21, 2013 20:20:33 GMT -5
To be honest, I preferred Rowan . . . No one could disagree with the Member on that point. In fact I confess that when citing the Arch-bishop as an authority it must have been Dr. Williams I had in mind. Upon consulting the link the Member kindly provided we see that: 1) Following a rejection of female bishops by the General Synod in November 2012, Welby spoke of a "Very grim day, most of all for women priests and supporters." How wrong the "arch-bishop" is! What a bad example! 2) And in March 2013 he stated that "My understanding of sexual ethics has been that, regardless of whether it's gay [ sic] or straight [ sic], sex [ sic] outside marriage is wrong." Again, how simply wrong this "arch-bishop"! (And I would love to see his definition of "sex.") I have the feeling that the arch-bishop lark all began with a conversation in a bar among a gang of old Etonians after "work." Discussing their ambitions one of them (Justin Welby) cried "I shall become arch-bishop!" (You know how confidently assertive they can be. The world their oyster.) But now he claims that the call came from an amercian, Mr. Wimber, former keyboard player with a jazz "band"! For the third time, utterly utterly wrong, and this time about religion itself! www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9668919/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-You-have-no-future-in-the-Church.htmlThe sensible Bishop of Kensington rightly informed him that there was no place for him in the Church of England. Subsequent events - a tragedy that will be written up by some future Shakespeare. T. W. Earp of Exeter College, Oxford, matriculated in Michaelmas Term, 1911. I did think that dragging C of E bishops and archbishops into an argument against jazz on the specious grounds of their representing, merely by dint of their position, some kind of "authority" on the subject or indeed on any other form of music was at best suspect and at worst a gross distraction; what you have now written serves to confirm this.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2013 23:10:16 GMT -5
You seem to be as obsessed with straight backs as you claim Mr Maus to be with bottoms... Hardly a mere "claim" - more a verifiable fact. The word "bottom" appears thirteen times in the main body of his essay and a further five times in the references, along with copious explanations! Would Mr. Maus be given the time of day at to-day's R. A. M. we wonder?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2013 23:14:31 GMT -5
I did think that dragging C of E bishops and archbishops into an argument against jazz on the specious grounds of their representing, merely by dint of their position, some kind of "authority" on the subject or indeed on any other form of music was at best suspect and at worst a gross distraction . . . Well I certainly did not drag the Arch-bishop in on those grounds. I dragged him in as an authority on Christianity and thus on how ideas stated centuries ago can retain their applicability and relevance to-day in very different circumstances. (Although now I have discovered the ironical fact that he became an arch-bishop due to the influence of Mr. Wimber the jazzy hot-gospellist.) The one I dragged in because he said something that is applicable and relevant to "jazz" and to the attitude the discriminating man should take to it is jolly old I. Kant, England's favourite philosopher.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 1:59:47 GMT -5
I suspect that the relationship between church music and classical music is an interesting one, Sydney, although this is not really a subject I am qualified to explore. The impact of the Mass, for example, on musical history, has been incalculable. The liturgical text arguably forms the portal through which music enters into the cultural history of the Western Christian world! You could also make the case that classical music originally developed out of Gregorian chant. Europe's 'language of music' has a continuous history from plainsong to Stravinsky, for example, and beyond. In the nineteenth century, the 'Sicilian movement' regarded Gregorian chant as the one true source of European music. The Benedictine monks of Solesmes, near Le Mans, undertook the task of reconstituting its theory and practices. Their work, which inspired among other things Listzt's ' Christus', is regarded as the principal modern authority, at least according to the historian Norman Davies (Europe: A History - page 273)! As for Jazz, well, its origins clearly lie elsewhere, but it seems to me that all music, including Gregorian chant, for example, is already a fusion of pre-existing musical traditions, ahinton. On topic, therefore, the Radio 3 schedule struggles to reconcile classical, jazz and world music, whilst most of the rest of the BBC broadcasts various genres of more popular music. I would be tempted to take a broad, rather than high or low church view of such developments. According to Immanuel Kant, Sydney, you cannot make one straight thing out of the crooked timber of humanity. My own experience is that it is generally foolish even to try!
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Post by ahinton on Oct 22, 2013 2:22:50 GMT -5
You seem to be as obsessed with straight backs as you claim Mr Maus to be with bottoms... Hardly a mere "claim" - more a verifiable fact. OK. The word "bottom" appears thirteen times in the main body of his essay and a further five times in the references, along with copious explanations! I don't see how that undermines the point that I made, though. Would Mr. Maus be given the time of day at to-day's R. A. M. we wonder? I have no idea. I do agree that a fair amount of the kind of musicological work in which he appears to specialise is deeply suspect and desigend for academic tenure purposes in order that material like this can be circulated among such folk's peers rather than having firm bases in neuroscientific fact, but I still don't see what particular bearing this gentleman's writings - either in Grove or elsewhere - has upon the specific subject of jazz.
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Post by ahinton on Oct 22, 2013 2:27:15 GMT -5
I did think that dragging C of E bishops and archbishops into an argument against jazz on the specious grounds of their representing, merely by dint of their position, some kind of "authority" on the subject or indeed on any other form of music was at best suspect and at worst a gross distraction . . . Well I certainly did not drag the Arch-bishop in on those grounds. I dragged him in as an authority on Christianity and thus on how ideas stated centuries ago can retain their applicability and relevance to-day in very different circumstances. (Although now I have discovered the ironical fact that he became an arch-bishop due to the influence of Mr. Wimber the jazzy hot-gospellist.) The one I dragged in because he said something that is applicable and relevant to "jazz" and to the attitude the discriminating man should take to it is jolly old I. Kant, England's favourite philosopher. I must confess to ignorance of any ideas that grew out of Christian teachings centuries ago that pronounced upon jazz; given that both these and the writings of Kant predate jazz by a very long time, the reason to drag in either Christian bishops/archbishops or 18th century philosophers as authorities on anything at all is, once again, entirely unclear, since their writings and work can have no bearing on the subject of jazz.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 3:16:41 GMT -5
I must confess to ignorance of any ideas that grew out of Christian teachings centuries ago that pronounced upon jazz . . . Mr. H I fear you are arguing with yourself. You are the only one who keeps on suggesting that the Arch-bishop or Christian teachings might have any connection with "jazz bands." Some time ago this thread moved right away from "jazz" - dropped the subject completely - and we are now discussing the way ideas are transmitted down the ages. Nothing to do with jazz; nothing to do with any kind of music even!
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