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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 9:52:58 GMT -5
so... a nazi talked about music on 3, big deal, am sure a communist has also talked about music, on 3, at some point
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 10:02:42 GMT -5
Good afternoon, Jason. Out of interest, where would you currently place yourself on the political spectrum? And thank you very much indeed for your unsurpassed contribution, ahinton.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 10:23:52 GMT -5
c
I believe the eco green path is probably the way forward, as the left and the right have bad past histories and nobody seems against 'the green hippy'.
Though, of course, Lenin fought to power as did Hitler and so do people now, they are all just stories people tell for power.
The will to power !
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 10:34:36 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 10:37:24 GMT -5
Global warming will help release new lands, produce new conflict, push forward technologies and is good for all, and I really do not like the cold, at all.
Never mind the lonely scientists, think "hippy green eco chicks".. oh yes... feel at one with the trees, the wind, the sun do I, soon I shall command them to conquer !
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Post by ahinton on Aug 9, 2013 10:41:06 GMT -5
The interesting thing is that Hitler decided he liked Bruckner in the end, instead of Wagner, which I believe shows a mature taste. I still suspect he ended up with a secret collection of music by Mahler. What would have happened if Hitler had ended up in a conversation with Mahler about the music of Wagner at the steps of the opera house or via a 'friends of the opera house' society and Mahler had said 'i say, you do know a lot, why not join me and my friends for coffee at that cafe across the street, you look a bit skint, let me buy you cake and coffee'... As long as we keep talking about the music, we can avoid zer war ! To begin with, I take leave to doubt that Mahler would have considered Hitler to have known a great deal about his art, or Bruckner's, or Wagner's or, for that matter, Brahms's, Beethoven's or Bach's. It is also likely that Hitler would have snubbed Mahler because he was an Austrian Jew, regardless of what he might have thought, if anything, about any of his music. The quaint and charming circumstance that you portray here would therefore sadly seem to have little if any place outside your fertile imagination! That said, you have reminded me of a story that I wrote many years ago about a distinguished German musicologist who wrote to and then eventually gained an audience with the Führer himself; I abridge it here as best I can from memory. The background to this meeting was the musicologist's claim that he had discovered that Wagner's expressed but ultimately unsatisfied desire to write a symphony after completing Parsifal did not after all mean that he had fallen silent and that he (the musicologist) had, as a consequence of painstaking research, discovered a hitherto unknown work that Wagner was writing in his final months and that he had actually completed - not a symphony or a stage work but a substantial cantata that, he believed, would eventually come to be recognised as the crowning achievement of his creative career. Wagner had met the young Mahler and encouraged him not to be afraid to conceive works on a vast scale that would call for orchestras larger than those that he had himself used although, sadly, he did not live to enjoy the fruits of this. Mindful of this, Wagner had followed his advice in this final work and written for an orchestra of quite unprecedented proportions and, in it, his long experience of vocal composition reached its peak in the writing for the soloists and chorus. Mahler knew about it but sadly never saw the score; he told the young Richard Strauss about it and Strauss tried to get an audience with Wagner but Wagner was too ill to see him, so Strauss never got to see this work either. Following Wagner's death, the completed full score mysteriously disappeared, rather as pages from the almost completed finale of Bruckner's Ninth Symphony were to disappear immediately following his death some 13 years later. It was then all forgotten about until the musicologist found the score, to his great amazement and excitement. He enthused to Hitler about it and told him that he had discovered that its composer, in his final letter to Liszt, had opined that it would ensure the supremacy of German music for the next century (although Liszt's reaction to this perhaps - at least to him - unwelcome assertion is perhaps fortuitously unrecorded). The often insecure and suspicious Hitler was on this occasion so excited at the prospect of what the musicologist had found that it did not occur to him to question, as otherwise he might, the precise circumstances in which he had discovered this great and hitherto unsung treasure of the music of the Fatherland. Hitler could not read an orchestral score, of course - let alone one of the sheer magnitude and sophistication of this one - so he said "but we must hear this work! - you will be funded in full to have a team of copyists to prepare the material for performance as soon as possible and to put it into rehearsal with our great nation's finest orchestra, under your supervision - and you will arrange for the première to be conducted by Franz Schmidt!" The musicologist told Hitler that he was already two steps ahead of him here (perhaps a risk thing to say to the Führer in any other circumstance) and that the parts were already prepared and ready for rehearsal. Hitler could barely contain his excitement. The première was soon scheduled but, before it was due to take place, Hitler himself was invited to attend the final rehearsal, in the company of the musicologist. When Hitler heard the first notes, he was thrilled beyond measure; "ah!", he declared, "this is so magnificent! - it is like the opening of Das Rheingold, only turned upside down!". Responding to Hitler's rather crude but by no means incorrent description of its opening measures, the musicologist replied "how observant you are, mein Führer! - yes, it is almost as though, whereas Das Rheingold emerges slowly and magically from the depths of the Rhine, this work begins just as magically by gently descending from the twilit sky above it - and, significantly, it is in the same key, E flat major". After the rehearsal was over, Hitler offered his warmest congratulations to the musicologist on having made so important a discovery but, although he adored the work in its entirety, he admitted to having found at first lisening that some of the orchestral writing so advanced that he occasionally struggled to imagine how a composer even of Wagner's immense technical skill could have conceived anything of such monumental complexity. He added "I must see the score - and touch it and hold it!". The conductor left it on his music stand for Hitler to go to see it and he and the musicologist then beat a very hasty retreat. As Hitler read the title page, he noted that the work was based upon not on a German legend but a Danish one; "ah!", he said to himself, "now by this great work of musical art, the Fatherland has annexed Denmark without even having to declare war against it!". But then he turned to the first page of music and saw the composer's name on it, whereupon he discovered to his utter horror that it was not Wagner at all but that of a young Austrian Jewish friend of Mahler. At the very sight of the name Arnold Schönberg, he exploded into an uncontrollable rage so splenetic even by his own standards that he burst several blood vessels and then suffered a massive stroke, from which he collapsed and died almost instantly. And the rest, as they say, is not history, as the war that you mentioned above never happened...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 10:47:14 GMT -5
Hitler had nothing against the jews, he just found saying so got him more votes and more people turning up to talks in beer halls, who were very happy to sell more beer.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 10:56:06 GMT -5
www.theguardian.com/world/2007/aug/07/secondworldwar.germany"Hitler's passion for Richard Wagner is well documented: however this collection contains works by Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov and Borodin which are worn and scratched from frequent use." I suppose mahler just became popular much later and we all assume he was popular long ago !
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 11:53:42 GMT -5
What a funny story, ahinton, laughing out loud (lol)! I reckon that if ahitler had got into art school, he might never have entered politics. History, and her story, are funny (peculiar) things! As for politics, Jason, if we can leave our world a little better than we found it, I suspect that we shall have achieved a lot! Thank you all for trying so hard! As for Gustav Mahler, I once made a journey to one of Mahler's huts, and got into conversation with an Austrian musician there. John Sandell - Klagenfurt : Mahler's Composing HouseHe was surprised that Mahler's symphonies rivalled Beethoven's at the Proms. We listened to the Adagietto together, as this is where it was composed. It was sublime!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 20:54:07 GMT -5
And the rest, as they say, is not history . . . There are two loose ends to your tale Mr. H: 1) Who was the distinguished musicologist? 2) What became of him after the expiry of Hilter?
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Post by ahinton on Aug 10, 2013 1:53:15 GMT -5
And the rest, as they say, is not history . . . There are two loose ends to your tale Mr. H: 1) Who was the distinguished musicologist? 2) What became of him after the expiry of Hilter? In answer to your first, I cannot now remember and have been unable to trace my copy of this document (it was many years ago that I wrote it); it might have been Schmidtenstuck but my memory of it is unfortunately very hazy after so many years. My response to your second prompts me to quote a recent interview with Daniel Barenboim for BBC's Radio Times in advance of his Ring cycle at this season's Proms in London which, when published, was emblazoned with the phrase "Hilter's favourite composer"; now I never did get to discover who this Hilter is or was (and didn't get around to asking BBC) but obviously you already know - however, I digress! What became of the musicologist I really do not know; perhaps I should try to find out.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2013 2:12:18 GMT -5
Perhaps Hilter was hilted, ahinton? As for the musicologist, I wonder whether he might have survived to make an appearance on ' The Third Programme' in 1946. What might be a good idea, Sydney, is to attempt to recreate Hilter's musicologist's contribution to the mighty ' Third' in 2013. Has the classical symphony, for example, finally run its course?
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Post by ahinton on Aug 10, 2013 3:45:45 GMT -5
Perhaps Hilter was hilted, ahinton? As for the musicologist, I wonder whether he might have survived to make an appearance on ' The Third Programme' in 1946. What might be a good idea, Sydney, is to attempt to recreate Hilter's musicologist's contribution to the mighty ' Third' in 2013. Has the classical symphony, for example, finally run its course? Did anyone mention copyright?(!)...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2013 4:02:55 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2013 3:29:52 GMT -5
Alas, I was only able to take a virtual journey to the huts of mr mahler. www.mahlersheavenlyretreats.com/I did consider, that at some point, one could do mahler themed holidays including walks there, as a lot of people google mahler. Keith James Clarke is a nice chap, bit obsessed, he had a 'peak' experience at the Albert Hall once and never got over it. He always reminds me of Tom Baker, tall and smart but eccentric.
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