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Post by neilmcgowan on May 30, 2013 3:06:59 GMT -5
Composer George Benjamin indulges in a flight of fancy on the topic of THE RITE OF SPRING's 100th Anniversary ( in the Grauniad). Yet what is this? "No composer since can avoid the shadow of this great icon of the 20th century, and score after score by modern masters would be unthinkable without its model."It may well flatter Mr Benjamin's ego to believe that - for one fleeting moment in history - classical music actually induced an audience to direct action of some kind. But weren't the enraged audience rather ballet fans, infuriated at seeing a ballet not choreographed with conventional ballet steps? Having dealt with ballet audiences on occasion, they seem to be far more likely to go flouncing around in a furious fluster than the meek-and-mild speckies in tweedy jackets who go to contemporary music events? Barefoot? Not a tutu in sight? Well, my dear!
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 4:07:09 GMT -5
Good morning, Neil. Thank you for posting something about ' The Rite', one of my favourite pieces of music. If I may address all five of your questions directly: I personally think that this is one of the key compositions of the twentieth century, although it is, as ever, a matter of opinion. YouTube - BBC Two (television) - Riot at the Riteb. But weren't the enraged audience rather ballet fans, infuriated at seeing a ballet not choreographed with conventional ballet steps? I would argue that ballet fans are, by definition, also classical music fans, as the music is, essentially, classical. Nevertheless, it was the choreography, perhaps more than the music, which arguably sparked the ' Riot at the Rite'! c. Having dealt with ballet audiences on occasion, they seem to be far more likely to go flouncing around in a furious fluster than the meek-and-mild speckies in tweedy jackets who go to contemporary music events? The ballet audience at the Royal Opera House is certainly significantly different from the opera audience. It is mainly female, relatively young, but equally passionate. No. No. Ultimately, I don't think that music can be entirely separated from dance, or anything else, for that matter, Neil. Any thoughts?
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Post by neilmcgowan on May 30, 2013 6:17:51 GMT -5
I don't think that music can be entirely separated from dance
You may be onto something there
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 7:17:47 GMT -5
Both my parents regarded Shtrafinsci as the personification of evil. They could not bear to look at his photograph, even. I think this attitude derives from his glorification in the Rite of the primitive and uncultured.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 7:57:51 GMT -5
I suspect that your parents had a point there, Sydney Grew. BBC - Music - Igor StravinskyNevertheless, it does beg the question as to whether there is anything essentially wrong with the primitive and uncultured?
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 9:09:02 GMT -5
the question as to whether there is anything essentially wrong with the primitive and uncultured? Does the word "wrong" add any information to "primitive and uncultured" kleines c? Would it not suffice to use the expression "primitive and uncultured"?
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Post by ahinton on May 30, 2013 15:42:50 GMT -5
the question as to whether there is anything essentially wrong with the primitive and uncultured? Does the word "wrong" add any information to "primitive and uncultured" kleines c? Would it not suffice to use the expression "primitive and uncultured"? Sorry, but an ignoramus in the art of musical composition cannot help but ask what - and judged by means of what parameters - might be thought to be "uncultured" about the score of Le Sacre du Printemps...
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Post by ahinton on May 30, 2013 15:44:54 GMT -5
Composer George Benjamin indulges in a flight of fancy on the topic of THE RITE OF SPRING's 100th Anniversary ( in the Grauniad). Yet what is this? "No composer since can avoid the shadow of this great icon of the 20th century, and score after score by modern masters would be unthinkable without its model."It may well flatter Mr Benjamin's ego to believe that - for one fleeting moment in history - classical music actually induced an audience to direct action of some kind. But did Mr Benjamin actually suggest anything of the kind directly and overtly? - and in what way/s might you suppose that it could - still less might even have been intended to try to - "flatter his ego" even if so?
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Post by neilmcgowan on May 31, 2013 1:27:51 GMT -5
But did Mr Benjamin actually suggest anything of the kind directly and overtly? - His opening paragraph says so: The Rite of Spring was a revolutionary work for a revolutionary time. Its first performance in Paris, exactly 100 years ago on Wednesday, was a key moment in cultural history – a tumultuous scandal.Yet what is really 'revolutionary' about The Rite of Spring? Such a remark superimposes an unwanted prescience onto Stravinsky's work. It was not a 'revolutionary time'. WW1 was an undreamed atrocity in 1913. The Russian Revolution - itself a consequence of the criminally idiotic pursance of WW1 by the Russian monarchy - could not have been imagined. Revolution in Russia had been put-down viciously and irrevocably. The Rite of Spring dared to suggest that there are alternatives to the pious pruderies of Christianity - and that ancient peoples in Europe practiced those alternatives vigorously and willingly. These alternatives revolved around the turn of the seasons and the elemental force of renewal. Pagan belief in Russia centres on two forces - Belobog, the God of Light, and Chernobog, the God of Darkness. They are at battle continuously, one never quite gaining victory over the other. As a religion, it's based on reality. It doesn't involve any Judean woodwork enthusiasts. No wonder there were riots.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2013 2:26:13 GMT -5
Sorry, but an ignoramus in the art of musical composition cannot help but ask what - and judged by means of what parameters - might be thought to be "uncultured" about the score of Le Sacre du Printemps... What I had in mind was not so much the score, as what is depicted in the ballet. Scenes of human sacrifice among prehistoric tribes; unimaginable horrors. This seems to have been the joint idea of Strahfinscki and Roerich. "Primitive" is the right word; "uncultured" is in fact far too tame. "Barbaric" might have been better. More and more often, especially since 1908, wrong-headed people have confused the greatly shocking with the great.
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Post by ahinton on May 31, 2013 2:59:39 GMT -5
what is really 'revolutionary' about The Rite of Spring? Such a remark superimposes an unwanted prescience onto Stravinsky's work. It was not a 'revolutionary time'. WW1 was an undreamed atrocity in 1913. The Russian Revolution - itself a consequence of the criminally idiotic pursance of WW1 by the Russian monarchy - could not have been imagined. Revolution in Russia had been put-down viciously and irrevocably. The Rite of Spring dared to suggest that there are alternatives to the pious pruderies of Christianity - and that ancient peoples in Europe practiced those alternatives vigorously and willingly. These alternatives revolved around the turn of the seasons and the elemental force of renewal. Pagan belief in Russia centres on two forces - Belobog, the God of Light, and Chernobog, the God of Darkness. They are at battle continuously, one never quite gaining victory over the other. As a religion, it's based on reality. It doesn't involve any Judean woodwork enthusiasts. No wonder there were riots. What is revolutionary about that score? Well, less, I think, than is often claimed. I am no great fan of Stravinsky, to be honest, but the works leading to Le Sacre and Le Sacre itself certainly make their mark and have endured well. If anything, what's "revolutionary" about Le Sacre (and, even as I write this, I think "revolutionary" to be too string a word for it) is arguably the bringing forward of rhythm as a greater priority than the other elements than was the case in much earlier music - but even then, I'm not so sure that this turned music upside down as some would seek to persuade that it does. I note one commentator as accepting that "modern music" began (if it could ever be said to have begin anywhere at all) well before 1913, it was Le Sacre that got it off the ground; it's an interesting thought en passant but I'm unsure as to whether or where any hard and fast evidence for it might be found. One has only to consider what Debussy, Busoni, Ravel, Bartók and Schönberg had written before 1913 and Strauss's Salome and Elektra - to say nothing of the more adventurous of Alkan and Liszt's works - to perceive it in a more properly balanced perspective.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2013 3:07:52 GMT -5
Someone once told me that in musical terms, the twentieth century represented a triumph of rhythm over melody. Now, like all generalisations, I don't think that this is entirely true, but perhaps when one considers the influence of a work like 'the rite', or even 'Le Sacre', there may be some truth in it?
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Post by neilmcgowan on May 31, 2013 3:15:49 GMT -5
Scenes of human sacrifice among prehistoric tribes And yet it is not human sacrifice, nor is it prehistoric. The priestess willingly dances herself to death - a quite different topic! The setting is pre-Christian Russia, and not prehistoric Russia
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Post by neilmcgowan on May 31, 2013 3:23:25 GMT -5
Someone once told me that in musical terms, the twentieth century represented a triumph of rhythm over melody. Now, like all generalisations, I don't think that this is entirely true, but perhaps when one considers the influence of a work like 'the rite', or even ' Le Sacre', there may be some truth in it? But as a generalisation, it holds water It's evidenced by the enormous rise in the use of percussion instruments in the orchestra in the C20th. Even the orchestrationally-inventive Wagner rarely strays beyond the 'standard' C19th percussion section of tympani, bass drum, and cymbals. Yet by the middle of the C20th, most symphony orchestras would have at least three percussionists on call, in addition to the tympanist (tympanists are not over-keen to be identified as percussionists, by and large).
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Post by neilmcgowan on May 31, 2013 3:27:40 GMT -5
One has only to consider what Debussy, Busoni, Ravel, Bartók and Schönberg had written before 1913 and Strauss's Salome and Elektra - to say nothing of the more adventurous of Alkan and Liszt's works - to perceive it in a more properly balanced perspective. Well yes, exactly so One might well push those comparisons back several decades too - to the brinkmanship of tonality in TRISTAN & ISOLDE, and to the destructive mayhem of the closing scenes of GOETTERDAEMERUNG.
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